Personal Growth Through Social Support with Dr. Hansa Bhargava

Well welcome everybody to our Sessions podcast. I can't tell

you how privileged I am to have our guests on, I would say 100%.

I'm immensely privileged to spend our time with Dr. Hansa

Bhargava, she listed on her website I got a big smile on her

this she's a renowned speaker, an author, but she lists on her

website, she's a mom, first a pediatrician. And a

nutritionist. And somebody as, you guys know, I'm super

concerned with Holistic Health, and not just compartmentalizing

when we look at health and development and functionality.

But I love that she recognizes that she's like everybody else.

I'm a mom. And I do have expertise and being a

pediatrician. And of course, I'm fascinated to talk about

nutrition and the gut brain access and how that affects us.

But Dr. Bhargava, has an exceptional purposely driven

life that has taken her from being the senior medical

director of WebMD, to the Chief Medical Officer of Medscape.

She's often relied on as an expert for the White House, and

has an x is an extraordinary author who has facilitated

parent coaching, teachings in reduction of anxiety and stress,

and really talking about holistic health. So I am just, I

just can't say thank you enough to be able to spend some time

with you, and to hear your story and some convictions that you

have and some maybe some techniques in helping us as

psychotherapist and parents. So Dr. Bhargava. Welcome,

Rob, thank you so much. And that was such a kind introduction.

But I'm truly honored to actually have met you to have

met Sabrina to know of your organization because you're

doing tremendous work. So thank you for being here.

Well, thank you so much. Well, I'd like to start off with just

telling us, yeah, what got you into this tell us a little bit

about Of course, I love the story. But where did it begin

for? You? would just love to hear that?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, if you really want to know about my

beginning, I should struggle to in childhood, right?

Yes, yes.

And so I always, I was born in Canada, raised in Canada by an

immigrant mom, you know, my, my parents actually got divorced

when I was about 10, or 11 years old. And my I had two younger

sisters. So my mom had a tremendous influence on me, both

from the cultural aspect where, you know, she was trying to

straddle straddle the line between, like her old culture

and the new Canadian culture. And then also, of course, being

a single parent and being courageous in that regard. And,

you know, holding down like a job getting, you know, educated

in different courses, which would make her more, you have

even better job opportunities and raising three little girls

all at the same time. So I mean, I can't tell you what an

inspiration she has been and to me in my life, and how even that

time of wonderfulness, but adversity too, you know, trying

to kind of be in that middle class environment. My mom was an

educated person, she had a master's degree in Sanskrit,

which was is an ancient Indian language, but unfortunately, not

very relevant in the 70s and 80s, in Canada. And so, you

know, she had to re educate herself, taking college courses

in various computer science, whatnot, while kind of holding

down a job in the daytime and raising these kids. And so there

was adversity. I mean, I think it was hard, it was not easy.

But I think that, you know, my purpose and my main, like line

through all of what I teach is kind of rooted in that because I

understood how important it is to ground, the kids to also make

sure that there's a family unit, that there's connections and

communications. And that is like what I have taken with me

wherever I have gone. So I'll stop right there.

My mind is running wild. Mom, just three girls holy cow. That

that is a lot to manage. So she in many ways has modeled this

resiliency, I you know, if that's the term I love that you

use the term adversity. When, if I can ask, When does your

identity and this sense of maybe well being or I'd love how you

defined it, when does that start to form for you?

Yeah, and I think it was the kitchen tables, discussion. I

like to eat dinner and she always she always insisted that

we should eat dinner together. You know, no matter how many

things we were running to and from as as we grew up, and so I

think, you know, having that also like having a village, we

had a community where we would celebrate certain events, but

also summers, long, lazy summers with my uncle at my uncle's

place in New Jersey, you know, and she was very close to her

brother. So all of that kind of contributed, those are all like

ingredients in the recipe, right. And then, of course, the

will to do good and be good, you know, to constantly like, not

just be ambitious and and be driven to put education at the

forefront, but also to constantly have that moral code,

the ethical code to look at people like they are you, like,

you know, they're just like you and always be good no matter

what walk of life they're coming from, and to try and help the

greater good. So I think those are values she gave us. And from

there, you know, I took that to medical school, I wanted to go

to medical school, because I was really interested in health, and

I wanted to help others. And then I went into pediatrics,

because honestly, and I don't know, if you agree with this,

Rob, but teens and kids are so unique in terms of helping them

right? Because you have the possibility and the opportunity

to influence such a long trajectory of life, right? A

long trajectory of health, whether it's physical, mental,

or emotional, and to really do good in a person's life over a

long period of time. So that's what attracted me to pediatrics

and to kids and teens.

Was that something that you knew, even in high school, like,

Oh, I'm gonna be pre med in undergrad? And I'm gonna go on

it was that?

No, oh,

I didn't know that my school. And that kind of goes back to

you know what, people it's funny, because I was talking to

a mom yesterday that at a at a parent event, and she said,

Well, how do you? How do you make career pivots? You know,

like, how do you actually change? And what you know, she

asked me specifically, so interesting, Rob, like to have

this conversation right after on the heels of that conversation.

But she asked me specifically, she's like, what, what makes

makes you brave enough to kind of just jump, right? You've

jumped several times in your career. And, and I said, because

I want to grow as a person, right. And so what also

contributed was that in high school, I thought I wanted to be

an engineer, right? I was a geek, I was a nerd. And I loved

science and physics. And I love science fiction. And I still do,

by the way, and I love like movies that are science

fictiony. And, and so that's what I thought I would want to

be, you know, and I wanted to be an astronaut or an engineer or

an aeronautical engineer. But then, you know, I was, I was

really lucky to have someone who influenced my life. She was a

doctor, who was in our community, and she's doing such

great work and helping patients. And I was like, wow, like,

that's really cool. So, you know, I changed around the age

of 18 to 19. And decided to go down, like the pre med track. So

yeah.

Yeah,

So now you're at 19, you recognize, oh boy, I want to

integrate not only my analytical mind, but this humanitarian,

really values proposition to say play, how do I integrate those

together? Wow, fascinating. And then when you go to pre med,

when does this thing of oh, I'm going to be a pediatrician. When

does that? How does that?

so I think it was probably in my third or fourth year of medical

school, we went through the different specialties and again,

like, I was considering several of them but again, like the, I

think it's two things from it's like, you know, what's the main

theme? What's your main purpose at that time is to help people

okay, so I want to help people, but it's also just like that

doctor who influenced me to kind of pivot to medicine, it's also

people around you the influencers in your life, I

guess. Right. And so, you know, that, you know, again, I was

influenced by my mentors, my teachers, you know, the people

that I liked, and so, you know, we went on my pediatric rotation

and, you know, really loved these people. They were just so

mission driven, and just, you know, great people like Susan

Tallaght, she was my program director at the Hospital for

Sick Children. And I had just so much respect and admiration for

the way that she led her life. She was from South Africa

actually. And, and, and just, you know, was just enamored by

by the doctors who taught me and so I think that's, you know,

that, of course, influences you. Right? Like, they talk about

that in high school and school for kids and teens. You know,

find somebody who can be like their coach, you know, outside

of their family who they're enamored by that a soccer coach,

is it their physics teacher, you know, is it their health

teacher, their math teacher, and they have a huge influence,

right?

Yeah, we always talk about mentorship is really one of

those key things is finding those people but it's

interesting because we're hearing a lot more difficulty

for parents finding that mentor for their kids or their kids,

aren't you as active in sports are those people aren't as

readily available anymore? It's really, I don't know, if you're

experiencing the same thing, but it's fascinating.

I think it's very hard. I think it needs to be. I think it's so

hard in so many ways. And I could talk more about that and

would love your thoughts, Rob, because you're such an expert

yourself. But I think it's about the village. And, you know, if

we look back at humanity, a different countries, different

cultures, there's a few threads that are the same, right? And I

think that threads that are the same is connection community,

right. So as we go along, whether you go to church or

temple or anything else, we had those people in our lives, was

it the priest, you know, was the rabbi was it, you know, was it

you know, your uncle or the next door neighbor, and we were still

connected, right, like we were when, you know, I don't know,

And I think that's what I wrote about in my book, like the

overscheduling. The running and running and running, and the

race to nowhere almost has, has had a side effect, it's had side

effects. So kind of derailing this essential threads we need

as humans,

my mind is really just, it's running what wild. Because I

keep thinking back to the pattern that you were even

saying, as a child, you had this village in Toronto, I had

community, I had village and just translating it into my

psychotherapeutic language, that there was a place, that village

probably helped to be a focal point for stress management,

that I would just use the term co regulation, there were secure

attachment figures, a secure base that were all around you,

that when things were stressful, you could go back to that, and

maybe not even knowing it. And I know in today's society where

we're slipping away from having that village mentality, and I

wonder if maybe if you can speak a little bit about as being a

stress management expert, like, did that function as a stress

mitigator and without the without that what's happening?

Completely? I agree with you. So you look at you, people may look

at my career and say, wow, you know, you've been successful,

but what is that success coming from? And I, you know, I could

easily, you know, people can say, Oh, well, it's a success is

because my education, or, you know, my ambition or drive, but

I really think the success, like success and happiness is rooted

in that connection. Right. And that village, I truly believe

that. And, you know, I think that for my own childhood, and

even now, you know, I went back to see my sister for a few days.

And, you know, I was, we have times in our lives, where, you

know, we're more connected or less connected. And over the

last few weeks I've been so, you know, so encompassed by work,

that I felt a little bit disconnected when I went to see

my sister, I was like, you know, I need some grounding. Actually,

I need something. And it wasn't intentional that that happened

at the same time. But when I actually hung out with my

sister, and my mom, you know, and her family, after a few

days, I was okay, now I feel grounded again. I feel stable,

and now I can run again. And so just saying that, to your point,

like, I do think that we need to, as a society, make that a

priority, and set boundaries and say, No, I'm going to safeguard

this because this is what feeds me. This is what feeds my

emotional strength. It feeds my mental strength, it feeds my

soul. And, you know, I think I think I wish that that's the

message that people hear from my book, from my talks, that, you

know, we must stop, and we must prioritize, and figure out, you

know, what we really think is important. And that was

50 years. It is the same human brain, you know, this, right.

Like, we all know this.

Yeah, but we always think there's, you know, there's

something new under the sun, this generation is unlike any

other I'm gonna always smile, right? Because there's not we

have new technology. But yeah, and I wanted to point out that I

wonder how many people and I know your book does such a good

job of talking about this, I would encourage everybody to get

the book, of course, but is that I wonder how many people just

even adults in this state aren't even aware that what this

grounding could be or what it should be? We're just were so

fast paced, running, running,

sprinting, you're on the treadmill. Yeah. So I would say

two things. One is look, I talk about the C's a lot like the

C's, so you know, make room for the Cs you know, as a parent, as

a teacher, as a person, right? We all need room for the seas

and the seas are essentially like compassion. So self

compassion. So people are like, what's self compassion? What is

that like bubble bath? No. But no. But it's not actually self

compassion, by definition is an unwavering attitude of kindness

to yourself. So, when we when something goes wrong in our

lives, and it always does, everyone has stuff that happens.

What do we say to ourselves? Do we say it's all my fault? It's

because of this, I should have done this better. I should have

been stronger, faster, whatever. And, and what we end because of

like a lot of media, we feel like we should be perfect,

right? Like social media is giving us these filtered

versions, right? Nobody looks nobody posts when, you know, bad

crap happens. Like, like the car accident where my bumper fell

off. Like, I'm not posting the app. Like, why would I post

that? Right?

Here's me with a flat tire.

Yeah. But unfortunately, it

feeds the myth that we all have perfect lives. And it's anything

but the truth, right. And so you know, I think I think going back

to all of that, like we have to a be aware that our lives will

never be perfect. No one's is and be, be compassionate to

ourselves. So I'm getting back to the C's. So the other C is

really connection, and action and connection to like an inner

group of people. So like five people in your life, maybe it's

three people, maybe it's one person, whoever is your, you

know, your person that you can go to when things go good, and

things go bad. And they'll give you positive energy back, right.

But then there's also wider community where everybody knows

your name, like the cheers, song, right? Like, go to a place

where everyone knows your name, and it makes you feel like

you're part of something. So that could be anything. Is it a

book club? Is it you know, your neighborhood, your neighborhood?

Is it your church? Is that your temple? Like, what is it

exactly? So those are the seeds that I think everyone should

have in their lives? And this is, and the reason is, because

adversity absolutely will happen to each and every one of us. And

I don't know if you agree with that. But I firmly believe that

I've never met a person who has not had some sort of adversity.

Let me just

recap real quick. So I like this sees we're talking about

compassion, self compassion, connection, and community. Those

are the ones that you've talked about. First. And yes, I do

agree with that. Adversity is everywhere. I always like to

talk about when we talk about stress, and I know we'll talk

about this going forward. But I always laugh because people have

vilified stress and adversity to a point of I'm like, Well hold

on a sec. Gravity exist, and it's positive in our lives. And

that's actually some stress on us. That's actually positive

stress you stress right? Like, stress exists, it just is it's

the way we manage the stress. Let's stop vilifying stress

because it's necessary. And it exists.

100%, I couldn't agree with you more. Right. And like, I think

that trauma Research Institute has a great graph, right? I

don't know if you've seen it. But it's like, it's almost like

a heart rhythm, right? Like, you know, our hearts go up and down,

our heart rates go up and down, right. But we have to be in this

range of 60 to 100 beats per minute, right? So what we don't

we want our heart rates to go up and down. In fact, heart rate

variability means that we're more athletic. So the more we're

able to do that, that same for resilience, right? Same for

resilience. So we want to know, we want to be able to take that

stress and go up, and then come back. And that's, you know,

that's actually healthy emotionally, mentally, to be

able to take those stressors and bring them back. What's wrong is

if the stress is if you are constantly living up here, where

you're in super stressed state constantly, that's like

sympathetic overdrive, like fight or flight response

constantly, right? So that's not good. Or if you're like, down

here, you're cranky, irritable, and depressed, paralyze

whatever. So you're right. I mean, some stress is good

stress. We want our system to be stressed sometimes.

Yeah. I wanted to answer your question. So one is Managing

Stress. Please, everybody, get the book. Read it. Secondly, is

you mentioned the term self compassion. And as a therapist,

I've been doing treating a lot of families, families,

adolescents, children, with what we call core shame. And I've

noticed that when we talk about compassion, that sense of like,

yes, self compassion is right. But it's fascinating to me how

much that's a struggle when there's core shame,

developmental trauma, whatever is caused that, that it really

is a block. Like I'm not worth it. I I'm just I'm not I don't

know what the self compassion is. It's my fault. I'm just

unworthy. But I know you've run into people like that. What is

your recommendation to when when you run into that shame?

I think you're absolutely right, Rob. And you know, I was very

fortunate to have stumbled upon this program a few years back

when I was actually having some adversity in my life. It was

called cognitive based compassion training, cognitive

based compassion training. And it's a program out of Emory

University, there's several universities that have it, you

know, different iterations. Stanford has one too. And, you

know, basically, it is the kind of where I learned about self

compassion. And they do like when you go back to adverse

events and childhood, absolutely right, though, that can be the

root of a lot of like self bullying, or, you know, I'm not

good enough and all of that. So I would say that that absolutely

exists. However, the good thing is that we do have

neuroplasticity in our brains, right? So I think that there is

definitely a way to come out of that. And this, of course, is a

really good one, I think it was very, very helpful for a lot of

people. But there's other courses trauma Research

Institute has it, there's all kinds of ways to actually come

out of that. But one of the biggest things we have to do is,

in my opinion, is to recognize that we are often in sympathetic

overdrive, and that we constantly live in this like

sympathetic stress, like the fight or flight response state.

And when we do that, it is very, very hard. And please tell me

how you think, with your background, to see clearly

because your lens is blurred. So I'll give you a really good

example. So I was stressed out and tired and fatigued. You

know, I'd had a long, few weeks, a few years ago, and my boss

sent me an email. And in the email, he said something and I

looked at it, it was like, I don't know, five or six o'clock

in the evening. And I'm like, Grr, he, I mean, what did he say

this? Like, doesn't he understand that? This is

whatever. And I was just like, ah, or maybe it's me, maybe it's

me, I should have done a better job like, oh, there's this self

chatter, right. The next morning, I woke up, and I had a

really good night's sleep. Right? Again, another issue in

the American culture, were not getting enough sleep. And my

lens was clear. And so I opened up my laptop and I looked at the

email again, I'm like, he didn't say anything bad. It was just

stating a fact. And he gave me a solution. And there's just

there's nothing there. So I was so thankful that I hadn't

replied to that email Rob, like the evening before. But it just

goes to show you that, like a lot of these things of like self

unappreciation, self bullying, and all of that is a consequence

of the fact that we're constantly in that stressed out

state. So remember, we said, stress is good, but you have to

be able to come down from it too. And if we're constantly in

sympathetic overdrive, and we don't activate our other system,

which is a parasympathetic system, that really causes havoc

on our mental emotional health, but also on our body. Physical

health, which is why we, we bonded so much on the holistic

health, right? Like we're just causing damage everywhere. Like,

why are we doing this?

Well, I'm not always amazed. But I'm always wanting to highlight

that. People in sympathetic, I always talk about, you know,

literally, their lid is flipped, and they're in this sympathetic

place. Many times they get that's a familiar place for them

to be. And we're trying to do therapy. And I always like to

ask, how is your eating been lately? Well, I'm surviving on a

pack of Oreos, and a bag of Doritos. And my body's craving

this instant sugar, these carbs. And we wonder why therapy is

really hard. I mean, especially, I mean, you've seen it

adolescents who don't have proper nutrition, and it's the

snowball effect, right? Or sympathetic or hyperactive,

we're in Go, go go. We want these instant fuels. And it's

just, it's interesting. And I'm sure I'd love for you to speak

to this. I call it the snowball the snowball effect, right?

Totally. We don't even want to we don't even know how to come

down from that. Right. First of all, you know, the first thing

of any curing any kind of difficult state is to understand

that you're in it. Right? Acceptance, right. So moving

from denial to acceptance, or like, unclear to clear, okay,

see myself that I'm in here. The second thing is to activate like

solutions or interventions, right? So in order to actually

step away from it, we need to actually do some work to be able

to recognize it. But then let's just talk about the solutions

for a second, right, we talked about the Cs so the skis are

really important use its buffers right buffers to pull us out of

that state. I do think deep breathing. That's been shown

scientifically to have you know, box breathing or deep breathing.

Meditation can certainly help but trauma research institute

some really interesting methods to bring yourself out of that

super sympathetic state also, like touching wood or metal and

just focusing on it right. And that nationally stigma. Mental

to the present, to calm you down. So these are things that

are really interesting and important. And I guess I would

say to the, to our audience, or professional audience, you know,

the self compassion also means that you kind of have to take

care of yourself, in order to be the best deliverer of care. And

that's why I took the course actually, because it was offered

free to doctors and nurses, health care workers who have

severe burnout right now. And then I liked it so much, I went

back, and I did like a one and a half year training program. So I

became a certified instructor of it. And it really changed my

life, Rob, to get us out of that sympathetic overdrive. So we

talked about connections to get us out, we talked about the

trauma Resource Institute method, the community resiliency

model to get us out the deep breathing, the meditation, or

what they teach, which is a nurturing moment, to nurturing

moment actually pulls, it's a visualization technique, where

it basically takes you back to a time where you felt safe, and

makes you kind of sit in that time to kind of bring you back

into the state where you can actually listen, that you can

actually listen and you can inhale, what you're being taught

or talk to about. Does that make sense?

Absolutely. And I think all of our professional people will

certainly appreciate those resources. I liked that you

talked about the breathing, I think many of us, even as

professionals underestimate. Now I'll geek out with you a little

bit if that's okay, that our deep breathe deep breathing is I

love to say that the diaphragm is a way to actually be able to

regulate our central nervous system. And that diaphragmatic

breathing really controls our heart rate variability. And so

the breathing is just is just phenomenal. A little plug for

Andrew, Dr. Andrew Huberman. I know you and I, you and I had

that. in common. He talks about the physiological sigh being an

amazing way that two breaths in through the nose and one long

exhale, just there's these techniques to really help be

able to move you and those are connected. And I think your

speaking does, being able to get that sense of personal

regulation will help with the connection. And the community,

as well. So they all go together,

They all

go together, and they were a part of our into, they are an

integral part of the way communities have been, right.

Because when we rest and we pause, we have an opportunity to

do those things. Yeah.

Well, let me jump back because all of this is taking place and

you have such an amazing mind. Let me go back if I can, because

I know there's some personal stuff in or mixed with, you get

done with med school, there's a lot has happened maybe in its

efficient way. Walk us through finishing med school, and then

your career gets going if you don't mind would be Yeah,

absolutely. So I finished at the Hospital for Sick Children with

my residency. And at that point, again, going back to the career

pivots, you know, I decided that I wanted to go to the United

States. So it came from Canada, from Canada. And there's, you

know, some even there's some specialized training in

nutrition at UPenn. That seemed like a valuable opportunity. So

I go there, I do that training. And then I you know, I ended up

practicing pediatrics for a while actually teaching

residents and I love teaching loved teaching. I think it's a

it's probably from my family. My grandfather was a professor and

so was my dad. And so it comes kind of through that probably,

but so I taught the residents for a while. And then I moved to

Atlanta, Georgia, and and started working in the emergency

room urgent care centers of the Children's Healthcare of

Atlanta, which is a really big hospital system here. And again,

I think it goes back to the self confidence, the self efficacy

because they wanted, when I first interviewed for that

position, they said, Well, you can be one of the pediatricians

here. And I said, No, I, I think I'm I'm well equipped to

actually be the medical director for you. And, you know, I

emailed her, the person who's interviewing me, and she's like,

well, you know, you kind of yearn for that. And I was like,

No, but look at my resume. I promise you give me a chance to

persistence, persistence. Persistence was important. And

then after she saw the resume, she interviewed me and she was

like, Yeah, we're gonna hire you as a medical director at this

urgent care center. We said 30,000 patient visits a year. It

was very, very it was and this is important, because thank you

for asking, but it is important to the story, I think, because

after about seven years of that I was totally burnt out. It was

it was really affecting me because we had long shifts and

my kids started saying, you know why? Aren't you home for

bedtime? Mom? Weren't you home for Christmas? Weren't you home

for this? And that because I was working nights and weekends and

all of that. And I just sat down one day and even before my kids

came in, she was pregnant. It actually I had to had

infertility issues. So finally I got pregnant, I was carrying

twins, and I was working these long shifts. And I remember

like, I wrote an article for Thrive about this. I sat down

and the nurse brought a stool over and she's like, put your

feet up. I was pregnant is so big. And she's like, What are

you doing? Exactly? You know, like, is this good for your is

this good for your kids? Like your babies? And unfortunately,

it wasn't, they came premature. Yeah, and a lot of doctors

unfortunate a lot of female doctors, because of the long

training that ends up happening. But But anyways, you know that,

you know, I was burnt out. And that's when I again, started

looking. And, you know, found this amazing position at WebMD.

So, so you think it's like, Oh, crap, I think adversity happens.

But often it's that whole old theme, right? Like every cloud

has a silver lining. Like, we can't be afraid to pivot. We

can't be afraid to jump right. Sometimes there's something else

behind the door. And the one thing that when I jumped to

WebMD, somebody said to me that I'll never forget. And they

said, you know, you will not know until you go through that

door. What other doors exists beyond that?

Yeah. Wow.

Oh, yeah. Don't be fearful.

Can I ask what was maybe a your biggest lesson learned or

something unexpected that you took away from your ER time?

Energy that?

I? You know, that's such a great question. And I think it was

such a good experience, like I look back at it don't look back

at it negativity at all, it was very positive. And the way it

was positive was that I got to really understand the health

system. And the the challenges of the health system, especially

for those who are, you know, don't have as much resources or

access to care. So our population was 80%, Medicaid. It

was 80% African American, it was in a poor area of town. And we

had the sickest kids come in like sickest kids, sometimes we

would have to helicopter them out. And you know, they were so

sick. And I just felt like, like, it was really an

interesting experience, because it really gave me so much

understanding of what's going on. Right. And the resources

that we lack of the system. The inequities that exist and how

parents are, are everywhere are struggling. And now with the

mental health work that I do, I see that it's on both sides,

like it's on both sides, you have the lower socio economic

groups that suffer because they might not have the access to,

you know, financial resources or food on the table. One quarter

of our kids are actually food insecure right now. And then you

have the upper echelons who are also suffering for different

reasons. It's just hard to be a parent all round. Yeah, it's

hard to be a teen all round.

All around. Yeah. So you have this significant experience

managing this er, and then you make a jump to WebMD. I'm sure

not only me, but everybody's fascinated. Tell me what WebMD

is like, because you've heard this probably a billion times.

My wife gets a hangnail, she gets on WebMD. And she's got a

brain tumor, right? And then I'm like, stop, take it within

context. So I'm just fascinated, like, please, yes, what was

WebMD like, it's amazing. Oh,

my God, I was at WebMD for about nine years, eight years. It was

fabulous. And I'll tell you this, some of the smartest

people I know, when I worked at WebMD. Truly, not just not just

healthcare professionals, but journalists, Tech Tech people,

like, you know, design, marketing, whatever, like it was

a group of people, we launched a lot of great products. But the

reason I liked them so much is because we all had the same

Northstar. And that was like, help the patient, like, give

them information to arm them, to arm them for their own health to

be advocates for their own health. And it was wonderful. So

I got a ton of experience. I can, like, so grateful for that

experience, um, to get more experience and get, you know,

grow in different directions that I never would have if I

hadn't jumped actually, honestly about.

Yeah, no, I believe that. So you know, it's stepping stones,

you've got this. ER experience. Now you've got WebMD and the

pieces are coming together, is now you get towards the end of

your WebMD experience. Like are you is the book in your mind?

What is next? I'm what's next at this end of the webinar.

lot of public health initiatives with WebMD. We did a lot of

partnerships with the CDC, the White House, this that and the

other thing, right? And I started seeing the mental health

crisis starting and that's what you people are like, Oh, the

pandemic you know, had said yes, the pandemic did catalyze it,

but it was absolutely there before seeing like just hearing

Stories personally, of people who worked with me in the

hospital or wherever else and the struggling as parents, you

know, their, their kids cutting or, you know, became suicidal

becoming addicted to substances, like just this all on and off,

like what is going on. And then I started seeing the stress in

my own kids. You know, I was a little bit tigerish, I'll be

honest, my mom was a tiger mom. So like, I learned from her. And

so I was trying to fish. And then I started seeing it, like

my own kids having anxiety, and stress. And I was like, Oh, my

God, like, this story, these stories need to be told, we need

to come together as a society. So that's where the book kind of

started. And then, you know, COVID happened. And during that

period of time, unfortunately, I went through a divorce. And, and

so while I was going through the divorce, I was struggling, of

course, I was leaning on my people, my my inner circles, and

the community, right? Because you gotta, I mean, when you go

through adverse times, you have to have people like literally

with a safety net. Yeah, right. And so that happened. And then

the other thing that was really important that happened, for me

to kind of explore our mental health a lot more with my nephew

died. So my nephew, my sister's stepson, who is such a wonderful

kid, just wonderful kid, he's a hockey player, just

compassionate, warm, wonderful, unfortunately, has substance use

disorder, and bipolar disorder. And, you know, my sister

struggled for years to help him through rehabilitation, and all

this and to the monster, as they call it, you know, and, and so

that I just that really kind of catalyzed my journey I talked

about in my book, and his name was Alec. And, and so all of

those things kind of came together. And so I kind of

follow that road. Yeah, yeah. And it's obviously such a need

Rob, like, the work you guys are you and your organization is

doing is just so important right now more important than ever?

Well, I appreciate that. And I can't imagine what one is, I'm

sure your sister was leaning on you for all kinds of input. I

would imagine, like, what do we do? You're the expert, what do

we do, and even with all of that high level expertise, it, it

didn't prevent a tragedy from happening.

That was the saddest part. And I think to this day, like she

feels like she somehow didn't do enough, again, the self

bullying, right. And I'm telling her, there's nothing else you

could have done, right? It's hard. Man, parents of substance

use disorder kids. I mean, they go through so much, so much.

Yeah, it's so hard. And I think as, as a, as therapists, we

might even underestimate how grief whether we're aware of the

grief or it's hidden grief actually might really impact our

ability and ability to have that stress tolerance to stay and

maintain that window of tolerance. I can't imagine your

sister just so grief that you know, you exist in that

sympathetic place. And

yeah, and this was her husband's firstborn son. I mean, it's just

really, really hard. To his credit, he did actually go to

experience the vipassana meditation for 10 days. Oh,

which is a really hard one to do. Like, they take everything

away, and you're basically on silence for some days. I don't

think I could do it. Yeah, but he did it. I mean, Dan, good for

you. And it really, really helped him with the grief. But

you know, losing a child's losing a child so.

So what So walk me through the time lapse and then you when do

you complete your book, building happier kids?

Published kid. So it started with the story that I was

hearing and my own story with my own daughter, I finished I

worked with the American Academy of Pediatrics, again, grateful

to them for doing this with me, they published it, and they

guided me through it that you know, they were obviously they

have the on the pulse of what is important for kids and teens. So

they, you know, kind of helped advise me on it. And it, we

published in March of this year, and had a book signing at the

American Academy of Pediatrics national conference like just a

few weeks ago. So

you're making such a difference. And again, the book is

fantastic. I think it's important to take it all in

maybe just speak a little bit about you know, I'm always

concerned with not compartmentalizing health. I

think that's an important I think you are too, like, let's

look at this holistically. Maybe what is one thing that as

therapist is professionals that we can do to improve our

practice by looking at clients more holistically.

Yeah, and I think you're so right about that, right like as

as Doctor urs we often just deal with the issue in front of us.

But we actually have to look holistically at the mental

wellness. Similarly, when we deal with mental illness, I

think it's also important to understand all the factors that

are weighing in on that person's life. So for example, like just

basic things like, do they have the seeds, for example? Right?

Do they have the Cs? You know? Or do the parents have the Cs?

Because those parents are like, similar to that email thing? If

the parents constantly have a blurred filter? How what's

happening in the home, right? What are the socio economic

resources that might be impacting them, you know, what

other disparities could be impacting them. And then I think

the other sees like, the compassion, right, like

compassion, we never have, we didn't have a chance to talk

about this. But you know, just trying to be compassionate to

the patients, to understand them to kind of get on their level,

but they're just like you ultimately, that's why, on my

website, I say mom first because I'm just like you, like, I'm

just like every other parent like that's first and to

understand that everyone has their own crosses that they're

bearing. And to be kind, I think it's really important. But

lastly, sorry, since you asked me, my advice to them, is also

self care, like self compassion, and self care means filling your

own cup, because you can't pour for others, unless you know,

your cup is full. And that, that starts with kindness to

yourself. But also giving yourself space to, to, to kind

of replenish yourself is so important,

when I really appreciate this, looking at it as the kindness

piece, the community, the connection, seeing those things,

because so often we think of self care is I need a longer

vacation, I need something to distract me from what's

happening in just knowing you have to come back to the same

environment. It's just it seems to perpetuate this cycle of

actually, that type of self care is not fulfilling your well.

I totally agree with you. Right? Because, you know, I went to a

talk with Dan Harris. One day, he wrote that book 10% happier.

And he was an ABC anchor. I don't know if you remember that.

But he had a panic attack on air, right? And that's what made

him kind of stop and do things. And so he said in his lecture

was so interesting. It's like, how many vacations can you go

on? How many five star hotels? How many? Four star hotels? How

many three star hotels? Are you gonna stay at how many beaches,

the happiness is actually inside you? Like, wherever you go, you

take it with you. So if you're not feeling it here, it doesn't

matter if you're in Bali, it doesn't, right, like it kind of

has to be here. And that's how we get to that is actually being

kind to ourselves kind to others and having those circles around

us to catch us I think right?

Yeah. Wonderful. And I really appreciate your perspective.

Yeah. As a psychotherapist, I do want to ask you this question,

because it's always, we love working with psychiatrists love

hearing from the pediatricians. And you're bridging this gap.

What do you see as being really effective? When it comes to

psychotherapy, when you refer clients? Or what is it? What do

you see as valuable when it comes to psychotherapy?

Look, psychotherapy is so essential, so important. And I

think, you know, I would say the most effective things as a pet,

like being on the outside as a pediatrician, is really like

holding hands with the parents and the pediatricians and the

providers like, we are all in it together. And we want to, you

know, make that circle around the child or teen. So kind of

communication, being really, really important, not just with

the kids, not just with the families, but even any other

doctors or experts that are involved is is very, very

important. So that's one thing. And secondly, like if there's

any way like, again, I know I'm plugging this self compassion

thing, but get make sure you're mentally and emotionally well

yourself, because that will enable your glass your lens to

be clearer. And for you to be more compassionate seeing it and

be able to have the side understand the side of the

family even better than you are like, obviously, you guys are

right, because that's what you do. But I'm just saying even to

clear it even more. That can help. There was a great article

in The Atlantic. I don't know if you saw it, but it was basically

power something to the effect of power injures the brain. It was

excellent. You know why? Because it talked about how like as

people climb the ladder as professionals or as politicians

as CEOs, whatever, there's parts of the brain that actually

shrink. There's parts of the brain that get grow and you and

I know, neuroplasticity of the brain. So when the amygdala

grows, because we're not taking care of ourselves, we have

burnout, like whatever it is, then you lose your ability to

see broadly and to see other people's point of view. So the

whole argument about that article was that it there's

there is damage that happens if you can't see broadly.

Ultimately, it Facts, your profession and your capability

of doing what you want to do. So, I think that's really

important to make sure that our lens is clear.

So the self compassion piece, we could really have some more

clarity around what that looks like having the psychotherapist

we always like to use the term we have to do with the parents

as we want them to do with their children. The the adolescence

because oftentimes there, you know, we as therapists can even

be boiled and expectation like the parents are like, well just

make them better or do this and or their parents, they should

know better, right? Like, oh, I tend to cringe because then we

lose our compassion for the parents and their narrative and

their story, their attachment history and their ability to

maybe they have unrealistic or inaccurate expectations or

unresolved grief or whatever that is. So working, I'm hearing

you say, Help help the parents get into that place of self

compassion, but it is I would use the term experiential, that

we as psychotherapist can help facilitate that self compassion,

because oftentimes, as parents were boiled in it, we can't see

the forest through the trees, right.

So hard and like the patients I've dealt with, which are like,

and you know, pediatricians and physicians often have what we

might call challenging patients, you know, not really listening,

they have their own seeming, their seeming agenda or whatever

to penetrate down is just to literally get to their level,

right? And say, Hey, I'm just like you. I'm a parent. I like

and that was the most effective for me, like when I actually was

able to really communicate with them, either I, you know, and

say, I want to do for your child or teen what I would want from

my own child and teen. You know, and and that's when they really

listen to actually, that's when they listened, right? So I think

for us to be able to put ourselves into the parents

shoes, enables us to communicate more effectively to them, don't

you think?

Empathy, empathy, empathy? Yes. So if I can just catch me up to

catch me up to today? I mean, how are things with your kids?

How are things with your life? I'm just, you know, because we

say it's integrated. Right? Your story is part of your expertise.

Yeah. And Rob, like, you want the truth?

I do want to choose because I believe that adversity and

growth is part of of our story.

And adversity. Growth totally is and so look, it's it's, you

know, it's not easy being a parent, and it's not, you know,

I have two kids that are absolutely different. I have to

honor their differences, right on are the differences tweak my

communication style, according to their differences, right.

It's a constant tweaking of communication style, and you

have teens as well, like, when they were 11, how do we talk to

them? When they were 13? How do we talk to them? When they're

16? How do we talk to them, right, and it's constantly like

resetting everything, right? And then resetting according to to

the kid. But I do think that as a parent myself, what I've

learned is, my North store is keeping that as communication

lines open. Because if I lose that communication and trust

with them, they're not going to come to me if there's a crisis,

they're not gonna come to me if things go bad, they're not gonna

come to me if things go good, but they might not. But they

won't come to me when there's a crisis. And that's why

communication is like one of the C's, the C, we're going back to

the three C's, it's actually five C's, the fourth C is

actually communication. That's the big C. And then the fifth

thing is calm, calm, finding calm.

Can I ask really quickly, what are the couple of factors that

are the biggest blockers to that communication with the kids? Be

it your own kids or parents, I would think there's a few things

that come up that are like, ooh, this will hinder your

communication.

check your ego at the door. I think that's true of every

thing. Right? It really is. Really, because, you know,

authoritarianism, I don't think really works. You know, I think

that I really try hard to bring them back to the family values.

And sometimes it's the chat that hey, you know, I don't really

care what other people are doing. This is what's happening

in our home. And these are the reasons why like, you gotta give

them reasons why. Right? And, you know, I think sometimes you

just have to check yourself at the door. Like to walk in

bringing your job with you. Right? Okay, this is my, I'm

putting my parent hat on and taking the moment to have find

that calm. The calm is so important as a parent. I think

it's so important like because then that'll stop you like

taking a breath before you react. Really important, right?

Viktor Frankl? I think we talked about this.

Yeah, man. Yeah, right. And it's

really like an event happens. And there's a reaction but the

space between the event and the reaction if you can just like a

be able to control that, like, whatever, there is a deep breath

or just looking the other way for a second while you compose

yourself or just saying, hey, you know what, I need a few

minutes. I will talk to you a few minutes. I will talk to you

tomorrow morning about this, because I'm not at my best

moment right now. Whatever it is, we got to do it. Right. And

again, I know I keep going back to self care. But that's why

self care is important. Because it kind of keeps your lens

clean.

Well, and all those things actually reduce defensiveness. I

mean, we all know that adolescence, but most people are

pretty easily triggered into defensiveness and as well as us.

And then we lose the safety and the compassion and the ability

to be open and all lost. And there's techniques, I loved what

you're giving us. These are techniques to reduce your own,

calm yourself, reduce your own defensiveness and not triggered

the defensiveness and others really tremendous. So okay, so

I've got some really questions, the big ones I'd love to ask,

what part of your story is untold? is still untold?

Yeah, I knew that was gonna come my way.

you knew

it was coming? Well, I gotta ask it. I gotta ask it. It's the big

one for me.

I mean, I think the story, the problem is really that's untold

is I do want to make a difference. I want to help

people. You know, I, I want to continue on that journey. The

question is, where in the health sphere? Can I really make most

impacted by health? I mean, holistic health, not mental

health, not physical health, but the two are very tied together.

So how can I really do that? Because that is like what I

really would like to do. And that's really a historic part.

That's I'm told, I think I'm making a difference. I want to

make a bigger difference. And you know, what does that what

does that look like? If it? Is it? Like this 360 degrees of

health? Like, is it looking at different ways to deliver

therapy for mental well being? Is it prevention? Is it public

health? You know, what is it exactly? And then the other

story that I'm told, of course, that's a huge part of me is, you

know, the parenting story. I mean, we all want to be

successful parents. So what is successful parenting, it's to

me, it's not about getting into, oh, the first year of college or

the big fat job, it's really about fun, helping my kids find

happiness and contentment. I love

it. Love it, what what legacy will you leave?

I think there's a couple of things that I feel like we're

missing as a society. And that is honestly hoping to bring

people back to fundamentals. Fundamentals being just, you

know, you know, just the importance of how the importance

of community. I'm hoping I can make a difference there. And

also Rob, the importance of preventative health, talking a

lot about chronic diseases, and, you know, issues around mental

health and all of that, but I really believe that we should

start upstream to you should really have that conversation.

So I would say to a psychotherapist, that might be

listening, is there something you can do to kind of teach

resilience and resilience is an overused word, maybe the word is

emotional, mental fortitude, to understand to let people

understand, that are left to understand that, you know,

sadness, and happiness is part of everyone's life. Sometimes it

converts into a disease or an illness. But often often, it's

like that resiliency model, right? So talking more about

prevention, and how we can do that. And I do think the three

C's are part of that. I do think as you and I talked about what,

you know, the Huberman labs talk about like, sunlight is part of

that nature is part of that exercise. Part of that sleep is

part of that, right? Like there's physical attributes that

are part of that, too. So there's a lot of pieces to that

pie, but I really do think we need to come up with upstream

solutions. Also.

I said it was probably my last question, but I lied. That's not

my last question. So being a medical doctor, you know,

medication is just on the rise, like, no others these days,

maybe just take a moment. What's your view on medication with

this whole relationship with stress management and adversity

and functionality, and

I view it as one piece of the pie. There's a 360 degree pie.

Some of its prevention, obviously, psychotherapy, maybe

it's even psilocybin. Right? Maybe it's, you know, other

alternative forms meditation. There's so much there, right?

And I think medication is in its place, but it's not all of it.

Like we can't just go to the RX. We can't. We just can't and I

think one of the things That is really something a challenge

that we all need to work on is we need to have like a three or

four prong solution. It can't be a one point solution. Most

people need multiple prongs.

It seems like our society is looking for the hack on

everything.

Yeah, like the magic pill, literally, right? And

I always laugh because I have to say to parents in a very

compassionate way, there's no pill for shame. They haven't

developed that one. We have to work through it. We've got to do

it. We've got to look at it holistically. And how do we

rob like, how do we kind of shift the culture, shift the

culture to actually understand that there is no magic pill, you

got to work through it, adversity happens, you got to

let it go. Like, you know, let's be a team, let's be community

like the we not the me.

I think this is a perfect way. And I thank you for so much

joining me and telling your story and your own

vulnerability. I mean, you're a living model of what it really

takes to look at connection. I mean, the all of those who have

who have had the privilege of listening are drawn into the

story and relating it to our own lives. We all face adversity.

And if it's real, yeah, the struggle is real, but it's an

inevitable inevitable part of our existence and not be

overwhelmed by it.

upside is every time there's a struggle you grow from it,

right? Yeah, like you build that muscle. Right? You go to the

gym, and it hurts the day after but guess what? You're building

those muscles.

It sounds cliche, but I always push Carol Dweck growth mindset

pick up the book. It's a really great, simple read. Yeah, really

fantastic. Well, I can't thank you enough for joining us and

being a part of this. You've joined our community. We're a

part of yours. I think this is a great step in making the

movement. Yeah. Thank you so so much for your time, Dr.

Bhargava.

Rob, it's such an honor to be with you guys. And thank you so

much for inviting me in such a great conversation. I really

hope to work together with you more on all these wonderful

things.

Yes, we will. Well, thank you everybody for joining us. This

has been Sessions please look for us and listen to wherever